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73'goose View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Sep 2008 at 12:10am

Alright i believe im cursed now right about this time last year my transmission blew before the div 7 et finals and now on my way out to the track today, a week before the finals again, i bent up a push rod.

Earlier today i went to check the valves on my car because i had an assumption a valve or 2 may had loosen up, so i ended up adjusting one of the valves and thats it. I ended up finding the ticking was just a small exhaust leak.

Well when i was turning onto the street our track is on the car starts popping really bad most likely coming from the carb. I had one knowledgeable person tell me sounded like a broken rocker, so i pulled the valve covers.

At first i found that one of the valves was real loose, the same one i had adjusted. I first assumed that was the problem, must have not tightened down the lock nut all the way. to make sure that i didnt bend up the push rod i pulled the rocker off and when doing so notice the the intake valve next to it was now knocked to the side. So the first valve that i adjusted ended up being fine push rod and all, but the intake valve's push rod was extremely bent up.

I replaced the push rods with one a little bigger than the original just to test it. the popping was gone but the car now runs like ****,

So far i have tested the compression and have compression in all cylinders and all of them are close to equal, and i have also tested the cam timing by turning the crankshaft while watching the distributor.

If anyone has any ideas let me know. I am going to pull the intake off here in a minute so i can visually check
KEVIN NEFT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2008 at 9:45am
Kevin,
 
Try another carb or plug the power valves in your Holley.  Wink  You could have blown a PV when it backfired through the carb.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peanut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2008 at 11:00am
I think Steve is right..PV's will usually blow when there is a backfire through the carb.

find another carb and slap it on just to see if that changes the running condition.


dont worry pal...you've got the whole Infineon team on your side...if you need something, someone's got it, and is gonna help you out.


Best local bench racer around.
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PsychoSy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PsychoSy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2008 at 11:27am

I agree with the PV theory. Cam timing is dificult to check by looking at the dist. Maybe running and checking with a timing light to see if it has changed? (Assuming you haven't touched the dist.) Bent push rods don't happen by themselves. Might want to look into that a bit further.

Do you have hyd lifters or solids?

Remember' 500 miles is a drive, 1/4 mile is a race!

Don W.
Santa Rosa, Ca.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SLCaldwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2008 at 1:24pm
Kevin ,If you still have problems I will be willing to come to you on Saturday sometime to help with your car.Call me at 707-280-5037. Steve
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73'goose View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73'goose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2008 at 4:27pm
thanks for all the input....if i remember right we did plug the power valve awhile ago i will try putting another carb on anyways because we do have a few laying around....right now i did replace the push rod with one that was about 1/8th in to long or so and someone had mention maybe the valve was not opening or shutting all the way.

I will be getting the right rods in tomorrow, but in the mean time when i get home i think i will pull the intake and just check lifters and what not to make sure.

Thanks everyone for the input. And thank you especially steve for helping out at the track and offering your time, it is very possible that i may need your help  on saturday and will keep you posted because my dad has very little time on his hands because work.

I will let you all know y progress as i find things out

and if it comes down to it i will just end up racing steve westerman's dart again as he kindly offered if we cant figure this thing out

Again THANKS all

Kevin Neft
KEVIN NEFT
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73'goose View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73'goose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2008 at 8:52pm
Update:

I was not able to find the push rods today, but i have some ordered for tomorrow....i put a different carb on it and it now seemed to run better. it was able to keep an idle and made it around the block, which i know it wouldn't have yesterday.

I took apart the older carb and i did have the power valve capped and did not see anything obvious, but im no carb expert

the one push rod is still a little big

any other signs i should be looking for to make sure nothing else is further damaged?

I still havent taken off the intake and am unsure if i should now that i have found improvement from yesterday.
KEVIN NEFT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C1BAD66 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2008 at 11:47pm
Hey, Kevin!
 
Is that engine back to full performance?
 
The reason I ask is because if (God forbid) there's a crank-to-cam sychronization (I can't think of the right term) problem, the engine might run and have enough power to pull the car around under low load, but crap out under load.
 
Following PsychoSy's lead stating, "push rods don't just happen by themselves" and the timing chain/gear has "slipped a tooth", your engine may start and run, but won't make any power.
 
Did you bend more than one push rod? Did the engine make any "funny" or new sounds the last time you started it?
 
The major reasons for bent push rods are over-revving, a seriously sticking valve, coil bind at max cam lift, and incorrect crank-to-cam synch (piston hits valve) caused by the timing chain (or whatever) failure.
 
If you've gone as far as you think you can, I suggest bringing #1 piston to T.D.C. by the positive-stop method of your choice and looking for your timing mark to indicate right on T.D.C. If it's not dead-on, you've found your primary problem.
 
'Best of luck! Please post your results. At least it sounds like you've got a back-up racecar... 
 
 
"Strive for perfection, accept your results."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PsychoSy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2008 at 12:27am
Originally posted by C1BAD66 C1BAD66 wrote:

Hey, Kevin!
 
Is that engine back to full performance?
 
The reason I ask is because if (God forbid) there's a crank-to-cam sychronization (I can't think of the right term) problem, the engine might run and have enough power to pull the car around under low load, but crap out under load.
 
Following PsychoSy's lead stating, "push rods don't just happen by themselves" and the timing chain/gear has "slipped a tooth", your engine may start and run, but won't make any power.
 
Did you bend more than one push rod? Did the engine make any "funny" or new sounds the last time you started it?
 
The major reasons for bent push rods are over-revving, a seriously sticking valve, coil bind at max cam lift, and incorrect crank-to-cam synch (piston hits valve) caused by the timing chain (or whatever) failure.
 
If you've gone as far as you think you can, I suggest bringing #1 piston to T.D.C. by the positive-stop method of your choice and looking for your timing mark to indicate right on T.D.C. If it's not dead-on, you've found your primary problem.
 
'Best of luck! Please post your results. At least it sounds like you've got a back-up racecar... 
 
 


All good except the last. Bringing the crank to TDC via a positive stop method and looking at the timing pointer won't show anything other than a pointer that is off or a slipped dampener. (Either of which will have a drastic effect on ign timing BTW.) If you meant to do this with the timing chain exposed and to look at THOSE timing makes than you're correct.

So it still makes sense to check the timing both ways if you're bending push rods now when you weren't before.

Hope this helps.
Remember' 500 miles is a drive, 1/4 mile is a race!

Don W.
Santa Rosa, Ca.
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C1BAD66 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C1BAD66 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2008 at 2:05am

I stand corrected by PsychoSy on my last troubleshooting procedure!

That will only determine the relationship between the crank and damper, not the crank to cam.

"Strive for perfection, accept your results."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim McCombe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2008 at 12:13pm
Just remember that Fallon is a altitude track and your ET's could be slower by as much as a 1/2 second.
The old rule of thumb and it works is to lean the engine down by going a few sizes smaller and adding a few more degrees of timing.
I have announced several races at Fallon and the rich exhaust systems are common with the California cars then the drivers wonder why their plugs look so bad? A good MSD box will help but you may want to consider doing some rejetting once you get there just to be on the safe side.
If it feels like it's going side ways... IT IS!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73'goose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2008 at 1:03pm
Last night i had one of my mechanic friends come over to look at things and it turns out the lifter was a little chewed up, and he had one of those mechanic cameras and was able to see that the cam was chewed itself.

So now that we have found that the cam is no good I tore apart the front end because luckily we have another cam and am going to begin the process of putting it in today. I also picked up the right size rods.

Hopefully we wont run into any other problems.
Ill keep you guys updated.

Thanks
Kevin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73'goose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2008 at 1:06pm
To answer a few of the questions:

It was only one push rod

It did not seem to make any new noises
KEVIN NEFT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C1BAD66 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2008 at 5:09pm
Thanks for the update, Kevin!
 
Ooh, a bad cam lobe? That was kinda down on my list of potential problems.
 
It does fit with the single push rod problem, though. I know that was a problem on '70's and '80's stock small-block Chevys. Yeah, once the surface hardness is gone from a lobe, it's grind-down-city from there. That could explain the increasing rocker-to-valve clearance and possibly (likely) the backfiring.
 
I'm no detective , so I gotta ask, what [brand/size] engine are you running? 'Gotta feelin' it's a MoPar...
 
Whatever PsychoSy suggests, go for it. S.C. has gotta be a great resource, also, based on his family's racing record.
 
Don't neglect changing the oil and filter! That "swarf" hadda go somewhere...
 
Mr. Shadetree
"Strive for perfection, accept your results."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote McK_Racing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2008 at 10:51pm
Kevin,

If you're putting in another flat-tappet cam, you're eventually going to have the same problem with the lobes unless you use a race only oil, (not technically street legal) or add the ZDDP additive with the oil. There are no new cars made with flat tappets anymore, and the oil manufacturers are removing the additives that help avoid cam lobe wear. Something about emissions and government requirements. Going to a roller cam is expensive, but the potential performance increase, cam longevity, and not worrying about additives can be worth it.

Do what you have to do to get the car running for now, but get the ZDDP additive, and think hard about an hydraulic roller cam in the near future...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bad Vega Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2008 at 12:24pm
McK_Racing-
What "racing" motor oils would you recommend? I use Valveoline racing oil and have had good performance from it. However, I do change it about every 20 runs along with the filter.
 
Would a synthetic oil contain the needed addatives? or be generally better?
Thanks, Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PsychoSy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2008 at 12:48pm
My 2 cents would be to stick with what is working well for you. To my knowledge current Synthetic's, do not contain the needed ZDDP additive unless marked "off road," racing, or meet the diesel spec.

If you're cutting the filter and finding it clean and are happy otherwise then why change?

2 cents like I said... :-)

Check this site:

http://www.zddplus.com/


Remember' 500 miles is a drive, 1/4 mile is a race!

Don W.
Santa Rosa, Ca.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73'goose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2008 at 1:37pm
the cam we are putting in now is a hydraulic cam but i am unsure if it is a roller
KEVIN NEFT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PsychoSy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2008 at 3:09pm
You can tell by looking. Flat tappet will have pointy lobes and roller will larger more rounded lobes.Smile There's a pun in there somewhere.
Remember' 500 miles is a drive, 1/4 mile is a race!

Don W.
Santa Rosa, Ca.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73'goose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2008 at 7:03pm

alright i was finishing buttoning things up and went to adjust the valves with the new cam and one of the rocker arms and pushrods wont move when the engine is turned over.

Any ideas?

lifters were all new

KEVIN NEFT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73'goose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2008 at 7:39pm
Well it turns out it is at least a bent valve.....which i am having a hard time grasping because this was one of the other cylinders, not the one where the rod got messed up
KEVIN NEFT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73'goose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2008 at 9:56pm
thanks for all the help

but after we took the head off we realized that the the engine is toast there are several grooves in the cylinder walls

so we are going to move on for now and i will race Steve Westerman's dart in fallon and work on rebuilding an engine for the mav in the future.

Again thanks all
and ill se you guys in nevada
KEVIN NEFT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim McCombe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Sep 2008 at 10:45pm
Kevin.
Really sorry to see you with so many problems but at least it happened here and not in Fallon.
Nice to have a back up plan and friends like the wonderful Westerman family who have come to your rescue.
I found out long ago that a racers best friends are those in the racing community who are the very 1st ones on the scene when there are problems and you need help.
These people have proven themselves time after time and that is what sets the drag racing family apart from all of the others.
Good luck in Fallon and Dave Hoover amd myself are really looking forward in announcing this event and watching all of you do what you do best and enjoying yourselves.
Jim

Edited by Jim McCombe - 20 Sep 2008 at 10:49pm
If it feels like it's going side ways... IT IS!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73'goose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Sep 2008 at 1:57am
That is so true i would not be in the sport if the people weren't as kind as they are. Drag racers are the best class of people. I have had many people offer help in many ways and am extremely lucky. Infneon raceway really does have great racers and cant wait to race along side all the different racers in fallon. I am very excited to hear that you, jim, and hoover will be announcing there. I really couldnt stand the announcers during pinks and made me appreciate you guys alot more.

Again Thanks

Good luck to all in Fallon
KEVIN NEFT
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote McK_Racing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Sep 2008 at 11:23am
Bad Vega,

Like PsycoSy said, unless it's specifically marked as "off road" or "racing" oil, it would have to meet government specs to be legally used in a street car, so no oil that's currently street legal contains the necessary additive package to make a flat tappet cam live for a reasonable amount of time. Off road and racing oils are not restricted to what they can use, and so they have everything that's really needed, without emissions constraints.

But then, there's a reason why the emissions are bad for everyone. If you run a roller cam, you can use street legal oil and have your cam live and not pollute the environment as much. Smile  As bad as our hobby is for the environment, making it a little cleaner is never a bad thing.

Kevin, like I said, you'll be much happier with the performance benefits of a roller anyway. If you go hydraulic roller, it's no more maintenance than a flat tappet hydraulic. Good luck in Fallon, and with the rebuild.

See you there!
Scott


Edited by McK_Racing - 22 Sep 2008 at 11:25am
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